To customize your hearing aids for playing and performing music, as well as singing, Grand Piano Passion™ is pleased to offer this collaboration with Dr. Chasin: his comprehensive checklist to bring to your audiologist to create a music program suited to you.
The music programs in the major manufacturers’ hearing aids are often “poorly thought out,” with “very little effort and research” put into them, declares Dr. Marshall Chasin, AuD, Doctor of Audiology, a Toronto-based researcher and audiologist who specializes in musicians with hearing loss. Music programs generally do not take into account musicians’ needs to hear unadulterated sound across the full frequency spectrum because hearing aids are optimized for listening to speech. “In speech, you can miss certain things, you can fill in the blanks,” explains Dr. Chasin. “But with music, we have to actually hear everything. So, we need hearing aids that replicate music precisely.”
Dr. Chasin’s checklist applies equally to vocalists as well as people who play instruments. That’s because a vocalist’s instrument–the mouth–is positioned so closely to the ear. As a result, vocalists are similar to instrumentalists in creating micro-peaks of sounds that can surpass 100 decibels, a level of sound that hearing aid processing could clip or distort. Hence the need for a special music program. Interestingly, Dr. Chasin thinks, “It’s best that the audiologist you see does not play any musical instruments. The moment they start playing a musical instrument, they have these preconceived ideas and notions. It’s better if you go to an audiologist who just understands the technical differences between music and speech.”
Dr. Chasin’s Checklist for Your Audiologist to Create a True Music Program on Your Hearing Aids
Start with Post-16-Bit Architecture
What to tell your audiologist: First, be sure to select hearing aids that have 20-bit or 24-bit architecture to allow for a higher input level. Then start with the optimal “speech-in-quiet” program for the patient and make adjustments from there to create a custom music program.
Here’s why: In some hearing aids, all sounds can’t necessarily get into the hearing aid for processing because the old industry standard 16-bit systems have a maximum input level of 96 decibels. Music can be louder than speech with more dynamic peaks, so louder elements would be clipped or distorted. Many newer hearing aids do not have this problem, but it’s important to make sure you’re starting with an appropriate model.
Dial Down Compression
What to tell your audiologist: A low compression ratio of 1.7 to 1 (or a maximum of 2 to 1) is best for music.
Here’s why: The compression ratio represents the change in loudness that comes into the hearing aid versus the change in loudness that goes out of the hearing aid and into your ear. Too much compression essentially over-processes the sound, causing music to sound dull and lacking in dynamics.
Turn Off Noise Reduction
What to tell your audiologist: Disable the noise reduction system for the music program.
Here’s why: The noise reduction system is designed to reduce the sound of the microphone inside your own hearing aid, but this feature sometimes has detrimental effects when used for music.
Turn Off Feedback Management Circuit
What to tell your audiologist: Disable the feedback management circuit when setting up the music program.
Here’s why: The feedback management circuit is designed to prevent you from hearing the squeal of your own hearing aid. But sometimes it can’t distinguish between the whistling of your hearing aid and a harmonic or a musical instrument.
Turn Off Frequency Shifting
What to tell your audiologist: Disable any frequency shifting or frequency transposition for the music program.
Here’s why: Frequency transposition customizes sounds to your particular audiogram by moving some tones to a lower frequency. It can help a lot when listening to speech—but for music, it means your hearing aids can actually change the notes and octaves on you if this feature is turned on! Should your audiologist have additional questions, Dr. Chasin refers them to this article for practitioners.
We’d like to hear from you. How was your experience in working with your audiologist to implement this checklist?
I am a piano teacher with hearing loss, and experienced a sudden onset of more serious loss just 2 years ago. I made a change to Oticon hearing aids last summer, but am still having trouble with what I am hearing. I took your article to my audiologist and he confirmed that he is configuring as you stated in your article. I have a special setting for music, but I still have some buzzing and feedback when I play. I also have trouble hearing inner voices of chords and sometimes half-steps are not clear. Is this all my new normal? It has really been tough to teach upper level repertoire at times, because of the difficulty in hearing the quick changes and subtleties of the music. Any advice you can give, for myself or for my audiologist, would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Carol, thanks for writing, and I’m glad to hear that your audiologist created a setting based on Dr. Chasin’s advice. I’m not an audiologist, but if I were in your shoes, I would go back to my audiologist for additional programming if I still heard buzzing and feedback while playing. If your audiologist feels that he has done all he can, Dr. Chasin is available to fellow audiologists who have additional questions after implementing his recommendations. Hope this helps, and great to hear that you teach!
Hello Nancy. Just quickly following up, one year on! Now I have just been fitted with a more recent pair of Phonaks, the M70. Not quite ‘top end’ and not the latest, but hey, it’s UK National Health or nothing!
Equipped with the insights of Prof Chasin, Prof Doug Beck, Dr Alinka Greasley… I entered a most constructive dialogue with my new audiologist. She said the standard training has little to do with music, it’s all about speech. She got really involved, asked lots of questions, enjoyed the challenge, and I am deeply grateful to her for restoring very believable hearing. Down to 40, and up to my limit of 4k but not beyond – because that provokes high whistles heard only by others as well as jittery ‘pumping’ on strong musical harmonics.
She switched off all the fancy stuff – feedback suppression, directionality, multi-band compression etc – in favour of a simple wideband limiting for comfort. Live piano and recorded organ/orchestra/choir is much improved, I can do my job better – and speech also is easier to understand now the full vocal range is available.
Now that hearing aids can reproduce the lows, one continues to wonder why UK clinical practice still ignores the region below 250Hz. As well as bringing out vocal nuances, it’s three octaves-worth of music!
Hi Howard, thanks so much for this update! It is great to hear that Dr. Chaisin’s advice here, as well as that of other experts, has made such a difference for you. And I completely agree that the fact that hearing aids ignore the region below 250Hz is problematic. Sonova, Oticon, Signia, Resound, and Starkey, please take note.
Hi Nancy, Thank you so much for your reply. I made a follow-up appointment with my audiologist. I have another question for you. Is there something he and I need to focus on so I can hear ½ steps more clearly? I have the most trouble in the lower middle register of the piano.
Hi Carol, glad to hear that you made a follow-up appointment with your audiologist. I don’t know the answer to your question, so I forwarded it to Dr. Chasin. More soon, I hope. Best, Nancy
Carol, I’m passing along this message from Dr. Chasin: “I would suggest that she ask her audiologist specifically about this- that’s something that is easily adjusted. Her hearing aid just needs a larger vent.” Good luck with your appointment with your audiologist. Best, Nancy
Hello Carol, were you able to resolve your ability to hear 1/2 steps in the lower middle register? I am having the same issue.
Hello,
Yes, almost all my issues with hearing ½ steps and music in general have been resolved. I switched audiologists and he used a new to me technology to set my hearing aids. I don’t know what it’s called, but he placed a probe in each ear under the hearing aids and then ran a computer program that spoke in what sounded like foreign languages. The difference in clarity of speech and hearing music was amazing. It is not perfect, the music program is still too loud, but I can turn that down and enjoy practicing and playing again! I am currently working on a couple of Chopin Nocturnes and a Bach Invention, all of which need to be able to hear close harmonies and inner voices and I can! I had to get new Oticons this fall because one of my old ones was going out plus a new ear mold, so we still have some fine tuning to do, but that new technology has made all the difference for me and my ability to play and enjoy music again!
Hi Carol, this is great to hear! Your audiologist performed Real Ear Measurement (REM), which customizes your programming to the shape and acoustics of your specific ear canals. Your story is a great example of how important it is to find an audiologist that performs REM, especially when you are a musician! Have you seen this new article I wrote about switching to 3DME in-ear monitors for music? https://grandpianopassion.com/switching-from-hearing-aids-music/ I’m interested in your thoughts!
My excellent NHS (UK) audiologist is keen on music and really wants to help me, as it is part of my work.
However, fitted with a pair of more recent BTE aids, I was dismayed by the over-processed, warbling sound. Switching to a Music setting (yes I did have to ask) only partially remediated the awful noise, and of course in quiet speech without a whistle-blocker there was squealing.
Ten year old Phonaks (minus pitch shift, minus feedback blocking) continue to do a reasonable job for me, dynamics are contained but not squashed, piano is believable and playable, and when I’m listening to organ, partial dislodging of moulds lets in the bass. An open/shut vent might be good!
But how can musical needs be met, or manufacturers respond better to needs, when standard testing stops at 250 Hz? Even speech is for some people more intelligible with a fuller low-end. Male speech goes down to about 75.
Thank you for writing! It’s interesting that your ten-year-old hearing aids are producing a better sound on the piano and even to some extent on the organ than today’s models. It’s so true that hearing aids do not amplify the full range of the piano keyboard, especially as you point out, on the low end. A big problem for musicians, and an opportunity for the hearing aid companies.
Hello! I am not a musician, but I do love music and my son is a musician. I have mild high frequency hearing loss that doesn’t affect my ability to hear speech, as well as severe tinnitus. I truly suspect my high frequency loss is at higher frequencies than what the standard heading test looks for (a loss higher than 8000 Hz), and this “silent” hearing loss is what causes most of my tinnitus. (I’ve taken YouTube hearing tests that show I can’t hear frequencies above about 9000 Hz.) Can the optimization Dr. Chasin speaks of here help my tinnitus? I believe my brain is reaching for these lost frequencies and making this terrible chatter. I have HAs but mostly for the masking sounds, which haven’t been effective.
Hello! Regarding the tinnitus and poorer hearing above 8000 Hz…. I suspect that your tinnitus has little to do with your hearing loss. Just because tinnitus is perceived in the ear does not mean it is from the ear. With your relatively mild hearing loss, I am skeptical that the hearing aids will be of much use as a masker of the tinnitus. Stress is a major cause of tinnitus (and many other bodily dysfunctions as well). Stress is not the amorphous “air-fairy” thing we used to think about in the 1960s. It is relative to a well-defined series of biochemical changes in your body … that may cause tinnitus.
Here is the short form… when you are stressed, cortisol (a stress hormone) is emitted by your adrenals glands. Cortisol can cross the blood-brain barrier and get into the brain. Once there, it creates higher levels of Glutamate. (You may never heard of Glutamate but its like Serotonin or Dopamine, a neurotransmitter substance that makes the brain and nerves work). Glutamate is the one that is important for hearing. High levels of Glutamate are toxic to the ear and can cause hearing-related symptoms such as tinnitus.
A referral to a psychologist for stress-reduction strategies may be a great idea.
jJust acame across this as I am a retired musician (classical recording engineer & singer, if that matters) who has been wearing hearing aids for a couple of years now. They’re “OK” for music, but even fiddling with the Music program has only improved things a little. In a year or so I am thinkin of upgrading to proper musicians’ aids, with their wider frequency response, better mics and electronics etc. I have a fair bit of HF loss in both ears and approx. 15dB overall level loss in the right ear.
I presume that proper setup of musicians’ aids would require the use of at least a reasonably decent set of small speakers in the audioologist’s office that I can play selected tracks on so I can assess the adjustments? I’d imagine the EQ would be very difficult to adjust successfully purely based on my verbal description of what I hear.
Hi, Stuart. Regarding the fine tuning for hearing aids that have been optimized for both music and speech…. Since about 2021, questions such as “what is the best hearing aid for music” are no longer valid. All hearing aids in the marketplace have the capability to be optimal for both speech and music. The audiologist will assess you and most importantly measure the result in your ear canal with a small microphone called a “probe tube microphone”. This helps to verify that the hearing aids have been optimized for speech and for music. Some audiologists may use other equipment such as music played through loudspeakers, but that is not as important as using a probe tube microphone to verify the hearing aid fitting.
Thanls for the comment, Dr. Chasin. I believe the audiologist did use a tube probe mic in setting up my aids. Problem was that they weren’t really knowledgeable about setting up the music program, but thanks to the comments here, I will be well “pre-armed” with enough knowledge to be able to “help” them if needed. Your checklist here will be the main source of info, and I may even purchase your AES (?) paper for my own information.
For my purposes, I don’t need to be able to stream audio (music) into them, it’s mainly for playing music through my system. I have long used superb headphones from Grado Labs for audio editing and recently bought both their on-ear and in-ear Bluetooth wireless phones, which have no noise-reduction circuitry. Oddly enough, I usually notice my hearing problems to a much lesser extent when listening over these, sometimes barely at all.
I wanted to thank Dr. Chasin for his detailed comments in this discussion. However, one comment surprised me; “listening to recorded audio in the audiologist’s office is not so important “ For those of us complaining about “warbling” etc music, I would think on site adjustments and listening would be critical. Any response would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Stephanie, thanks for your question. Here’s a response from Dr. Chasin: Warbling is primarily caused by inaccurate setting of the compression system and this would affect speech intelligibility as well as music but this should be set before the person walks out of the office when they first get their hearing aids.
The warble is due to an inappropriate feedback algorithm. All brands of aids that I tried have it. When the aid detects a steady tone, it interprets it as feedback and attempts to eliminate it by phase inversion or phase shift or other similar algorithm. If it’s actually feedback, the feedback stops. BUT if it’s the sound of an instrument being played (or other steady sound like a bell, etc), it does not stop. The aid’s attempts to eliminate such a persistent sound by shift/inversion methods interacts with the persistent sound and produces a warble. The only solution is to turn off the feedback control. BUT on most aids the feedback control can not be turned off independently of other digitial signal processing (DSP), so the only solution is to turn off all DSP. It’s a pain to manually switch programs when listening to music vs listening to conversation. To control feedback with DSP off, there are some strategies including (1) reducing the volume and (2) using earpieces with more occultation. This works. Since most feedback is above 5000 Hz and most instrumental sounds are below 3000 Hz, a good approach might be to set up the anti-feedback with a programmable (or fixed) cutoff frequency. BUT manufacturers apparently decided to do this, for some reason. Also, most aids do not allow the aid to boot/start up in a non-DSP mode. I guess the manufacturers don’t trust audi’s and/or customers to handle that feature properly. Finally, there might be a way to use forward and reverse directional mic’s available on some aids to determine if the feedback/instrumental sound is being generated within the aid (feedback) or outside (instrument). The above applies to all brands that I tried.
I had a hearing test last week and my hearing loss is in the high frequencies like many older adults. My new Signia hearing aids will be fitted and programmed within the next week. I have the option for a “music” program, and I sing regularly in various choral groups. Should my audiologist follow Dr. Chasin’s recommendations for musicians, or are the adjustments to the program different for a singer versus a musician?
Hi Bob,
My wife has been evaluating the Signia Insio AX5 HAs. She is happy so far with understanding speech, but pretty unhappy with listening to music.
She asked for, and the audiologist enabled, the Recorded Music program, however, she can’t hear any improvement. We don’t know what to do.
How are you faring with your HAs? Are the ‘standard’ Signia music programs working for you? I would appreciate to hear your experience.
My email: jfranek43@gmail.com
Dear Bob, thank you for your question, and I apologize for the delay in answering. I believe that you should still follow Dr. Chasin’s recommendations. I will reach out to him to confirm. Best, Nancy
Dear Bob, thanks for writing. I apologize for the delay in getting back to you. I reached out to Dr. Chaisin, and here is his reply: “The settings for vocal music are similar to that of speech but I am not sure that Signia has resolved the front end A/D limiting problem. I can’t get a straight answer from their engineers yet. Even though Signia and Widex are now owned by the same company, I am pretty sure that the two companies have not shared the necessary technologies… at least, not yet. While I do know that the front end of the Widex Moment is rock solid, I am not sure of the Signia.”
Hello,
I am testing out a new pair of state of the art Oticon More hearing aids. They have been wonderful for speech and birdsong, but there is an artifact in musical tones that is annoying. Basically , a pure tone, such as a piano note or a guitar string will be heard as a very rapid stuttering, rather like a subtle tremolo effect at high speed. I think this is because of the delay between the original sound wave’s arrival at the TM combined with the slightly delayed waves that had to travel a longer distance to reach the microphone then processed and transduced and sent to the TM . If this is the cause would it best be addressed with an in ear device? My audiologist indicates that anti-feedback is not engaged. Thank you if you can shed any light on this.
Dear Ron,
I have the same problem with a pair of Bernafon Viron 3 hearing aids. I guess they have the same hardware as your Oticons because they have both the same mother-company. If I play one note on my (well tuned) piano it sounds with the hearing aids working like it’s a honky tonk piano!
Dit you find a solution?
Hi, Jans. Bernafon and Oticon do share some technologies but not all. The same is true of Phonak and Unitron, and I suspect in the not-to-distant-future, so will Sivantos and Widex. However, it does seem to be that the compression circuit is the culprit…. generally for music, follow a “less is better” approach.
Hi, Ron. Regarding the question about the Oticon More and the tremolo effect…. There are a few things that can cause a hearing aid is quickly alternate and provide an odd vibrating or tremolo effect. One of course is the feedback management system, but this can be disabled in most modern hearing aids and from your audiologist’s comments, this has been done. The digital delay is not a problem- this may have been an issue 5-10 years ago but modern digital delays are on the order of 1-2 msec and not 20-30 msec as in the “olden days”. This sounds more like a compression issue where your audiologist should minimize the amount of compression- making the hearing aid more “linear”. This is one more thing to try and has nothing to do with the brand or model of hearing aid that you are trying out.
Jans,
Not yet. Turning down the hearing aids’ volume reduces the artifact, as one would expect. I think it has something to do with phase canceling or comb filtering between the natural sound waves that bypass the ( open) dome and the processed sound waves from the hearing aid speaker. I’m going to try an occlusive dome sometime, eventually. Streaming audio sounds quite bad with my hearing aids. Airpods (occlusive) are much better, but of course don’t address the high end hearing loss.
Dear Ron,
I turned the feedback manager off in my Viron 3 hearing aids and the problem was gone. I used the TV/Music template. When I install it it turns the feedback manager on by default so I had to turn the off.
Regards Jans
That’s great! I’ll see if I can do the same.
Thanks so much.
Dear Ron,
I had the same hypothesis but it is not true.
I tried occlusive domes and the artifact is still there.
When I stream the sound from the microphone from the Iphone there are no attifacts.
When I stream to the occlusive domes there is a lot of bass. With my open domes there is no bass whatsoever.
Regards, Jans
Hi and thank you for any guidance you can provide. I was told yesterday by the audiologist that every musician she knows dislikes the Widex hearing aids. That could be because, when I presented her with Dr. Chasin’s hearing aid setting specifications, she didn’t have any previous knowledge of his work. In my preliminary research, the Widex seems to be a good hearing aid for musicians, providing it can be programmed according to Dr. Chasin’s specifications. Am I wrong in thinking that the Widex Moment would be a good bet for me (clarinet and saxophone)? Are there brands I should embrace and brands I should avoid? Thank you again.
Hi Jennifer, thanks for writing. I’m copying here Dr. Chasin’s reply to a previous post which I hope will address your question: Since about 2021, questions such as “what is the best hearing aid for music” are no longer valid. All hearing aids in the marketplace have the capability to be optimal for both speech and music. The audiologist will assess you and most importantly measure the result in your ear canal with a small microphone called a “probe tube microphone”. This helps to verify that the hearing aids have been optimized for speech and for music. Some audiologists may use other equipment such as music played through loudspeakers, but that is not as important as using a probe tube microphone to verify the hearing aid fitting.
Jans,
Regarding the warbling/tremelo artifact…Well, my audiologist says the compression does not engage until a considerable volume or gain threshold is encountered. I guess this is more like a limiter. I can only minimize it by reducing the hearing aids’ volume. It’s tolerable, I guess.
Regarding the bass.:
Ultimately, it seems that AirPods give me the best streaming quality, but I have yet to try the occlusive domes. The audiologist did show me how to insert the domes further into the ear canal; this improved the general performance of the device. Subtleties like this and position of the device behind the ear make so much difference. For me it’s an ongoing learning experience! All good, though.
Indeed anti-feedback is a recognised cause of warbling/vibrato/tremelo. Another, not quite so familiar perhaps, afflicted my music listening: very strong high harmonics in choral and orchestral music were ‘pumping’ the volume compression – resulting in
what I would call ‘jitter’ across all sounds. Remedy was to curtail the HA above 4kHz, to match my slope. Because of that glum fact, I had been unaware of the harmonics as such. Homage to a kind and perceptive audiologist!
Thanks for your comments Howard. I had never considered that higher frequency harmonics could be the culprit. This could never happen with speech because the harmonics gets quieter as the frequency goes up (actually by a factor of 1/f). Compression can be set off by any frequency l, both depending on the specific model of hearing aid and how the audiologist sets up the “detector”.
However, music is not speech, and treble musical instruments can have higher level harmonics than their fundamentals, and this can occur around 1000-2000 Hz. I doubt whether any higher frequency harmonics will be the culprit nearer the top end of the piano keyboard (around 4000 Hz).
Thanks for this insight.
Marshall
I wear the Oticon Xceed hearing aids. The sound level is good for general speech and conversation. As for music, the high frequencies are good but the bass response is weak. I’ll be showing this post to my audiologist when I see her next week.
Hi Ernie, thanks for writing. Let us know what your audiologist thinks of the checklist and how it goes improving your music setting programming.
I am in my early seventies, living in the UK, and my hearing of high sounds started to deteriorate in my thirties, when I also realised that I have tinnitus (which I am able to ignore). I am a retired piano teacher and am desperate to play the piano, but my problem is that I now hear high sounds at the wrong pitch, with and without hearing aids. This obviously makes the music out of tune. My hearing loss is moderate, and I wear Phonak Nathos Nova aids which are provided by the NHS. I do find that I can listen to recorded music more accurately using the Bluetooth setting so that the music goes straight into my ears. I thought of very reluctantly selling my beautifully mellow acoustic piano for a Clavinova, in the hope that there may be a way of using Bluetooth to get the sound straight into my ear, but apparently this is not possible, and in any case I really can’t bear the sound of a piano without a soul! I have only recently discovered this interesting website, and I will take the ideas about the music programme to the audiologist – at the moment all it does is to amplify the sound. I am also going to map the sounds I actually hear on the piano, compared with what they should be – they’re usually either a semitone or a tone out! I don’t know whether hearing aids are ever going to solve this issue. I would be grateful for any thoughts on the matter
Hi Rosemary, Your situation sounds so much like mine. Tinnitus, (almost retired) piano teacher and hearing sounds in the wrong pitch. The inability to hear the ½ steps correctly, to hear a modulation to a new key or even some quick chord changes is so frustrating. It is difficult to teach when I can’t always hear the correct sounds. And it is even more difficult to sit and practice when I can’t always hear the pitches correctly. I am considering changing audiologists at this point as well as upgrading my hearing aids which are now at least 5 years old.
Hi Rosemary, thanks for writing. I forwarded your comment to Dr. Chasin. Before I post his response, I wanted to clarify that we are not providing any medical advice here – that is the purview of your ENT and audiologist. We are simply providing considerations on how hearing aids may be optimally adjusted. Dr. Chasin asked, Is the sound that is “a semi tone or tone out” sharp or flat? If it’s flat, then this could be a feature of a “cochlear dead region,” in which case the gain could be reduced in the offending region.
This has been the best and most encouraging article and responses that I have ever read. I have had single sided deafness since ?birth or early childhood. I started wearing hearing aids about 30 years ago. I have been through several brands along the way and have seen great improvements. My hearing loss is not the “average”, as I have great high frequency hearing, which is about the opposite of what every hearing aid is programmed for. I started playing cello several years ago and have worked closely with my audiologist to get the best sound possible for speech and hearing. My Widex Dream, along with my awesome audiologist, was the best I have ever had with speech and music. I “ upgraded” recently to an Oticon hearing aid. It is great for listening to music through the Bluetooth feature, but we still haven’t gotten a good fix for live music. Higher frequencies are crackly or just plain painful. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Linda, thanks for writing, and I’m so glad to hear that you find the site useful. I’m only privy to the information that you shared here, so take this with a grain of salt: if the Widex was working for you, any reason that you didn’t stick with that brand when upgrading? Are you still within your return window? Food for thought. Best, Nancy
Ancient audiophile here. BTE better for usual presbycusis (only treble (female voices) loss) because it does not oblige the aid to pump in the bass (since the bass from the room sneaks around the ear insert). However, user has to “equalize” the bass (from the room) and the treble (from the aids) so they are in balance.
Noise adjustment cuts the higher-freq (such as wind noise) and is detrimental to HiFi listening. Likewise, other adjustments may blend the ears to promote focus forward; again, detrimental.
I play violin in a symphony and have moderate bilateral loss, wear Widex Evoke 440’s with fitting optimized by real ear measurement. My audi has not yet modified the music program as above and I like the way music sounds on the Universal program. My problem is loudness on stage, at least 100DB from brass with reflectors behind and percussion behind me. Noise protection alone is not enough because I also need correction and speech for conductor comments. My audi made custom non-vented molds and this helps a lot,but the brass consistently distort at their high volumes and it’s very hard to hear the string players around me. Besides putting tape on the mics, what else can I do? (And is there any point in using a thicker tape over the first layer of Scotch?)
Hi Michael, thanks for writing. Here is Dr. Chasin’s response: “The WIDEX 440 aids are quite capable of transmitting the higher levels of the brass INTO your hearing aids without distortion. But it may be the OUTPUT of the hearing aid into your ears that need to be modified- it may be too low which would distort the brass and this is merely a software adjustment that your audiologist can make.” When I asked Dr. Chasin about the scotch tape, he added, “if putting scotch tape on his microphones improves things, this is evidence that his current hearing aids have a peak input limiting level that is too low.” Hope this helps! Please write back and let us know how you fared.
I come to this discussion as an audiophile of 65 years experience.Other audiophiles will find my points familiar.
The initial decision is between in-the-ear and behind-the-ear aids. If your hearing loss is moderate and/or just in the treble (as with ordinary presbycusis), you are better off with BTE augmenting the treble rather than trying to get the wee loudspeaker in your aid (or in your ear) to cover the bass range too.
Amplifying just the treble in a BTE aid leads to a situation resembling balancing woofers and tweeters in a HiFi loudspeaker: how much bass are you getting sneaking past the mushroom in your ear and how does that mesh with the treble amplified by the aid?
As Dr Chasins and others have emphasized, what’s best for speech may not provide “flat” frequency support for a musician or HiFi listener, certainly not for me. As an audiophile and one who has spent countless hours “equalizing” the tone colour of my loudspeakers with test gear, I can prompt my audi (a very cooperative person at Costco in Toronto) how to tweak my aids for music listening… and the result – while certainly never achieving great fidelity – it pretty satisfying.
Ben
Thanks so much for sharing your experienced perspective, Ben!
I am trying a Widex Moment 330. I sing in a women’s Barbershop chorus and am having issues with the music program. I am deaf in my left ear and wear the Widex in my right ear. I need to hear myself sing and also hear the other parts around, so far it has been one or other. Some incite would be gratefully accepted.
Hi Leila, thanks for writing, and we are happy to answer your question. One thing I wanted to understand: have you already worked with your audiologist to implement Dr. Chasin’s suggestions in this article? Best, Nancy
not yet
Okay, that would be the best place to start. I’m not a doctor, and this is not medical advice, of course. The article explains my best understanding of how to improve making music while wearing hearing aids. Hope it’s useful!
Guitar player with Philips 9030’s from Costco in San Diego. I’ve managed to find some settings (I do som DIY for music only) that work for my playing but looking to optimise those. I did start with the music program, turned off noise and feedback and any directionality. Will try this with the “noise in speech” option first as suggested. I did some compression ratio adjustments setting all of them to 1.3 by first reducing all the 65 dB values to get 1.3 (between 50 db and 65 db) and then reducing the 80 dB values to get 1.3 (between 65 db and 80 db). I still found that I had to reduce the overall gain at all levels and frequency a bit to get an acceptable undistorted, non-shrill sound from the higher notes on my guitars. I plan to try cr of 1.7 next but seems like that might result in more gain that I might have to reduce further. I know this isn’t a DIY site but maybe throwing some light on how to reduce compression ratios would help others convey what they want their fitter or Aud to try. My “fitter” only employed 16 bands rather than 24 and I’m wondering how this might affect music performance. Thanks for the great information.
Hello, Fred, thanks for writing. Please see Dr. Chasin’s reply below. Have you heard of the 3DME in-ear monitors? I recently switched to them for all things music. Here’s my independent review. https://grandpianopassion.com/alternative-hearing-aids-music-3dme-in-ear-monitors/
Dr. Chasin’s reply: “I wouldn’t get too caught up in the exact settings of the compression since these can be affected by test artifacts that are not real. For example, if there is any venting or hole(s) in the earmold, then the “real” compression ratio is much lower than what the fitting software would state.
My concern (and I am not positive), but the last time I checked, the Philips hearing aids cannot handle the louder inputs associated with music without distortion. This is a hardware/hearing aid issue and nothing to do with the programming software settings.
As such, with this hearing aid (and many others on the market) nothing can be done to lessen the distortion.”
I have a question about streaming audio through HA’s. I’ve just upgraded from an older pair of Sivantos to Jabra Enhance Pro 20, and although “pre-armed” with Dr. Chasin’s checklist it seems that the factory settings for the Music program are pretty good as-is and my audiologist didn’t have to delve into areas that I think she is unfamiliar with (I had contacted Resound back in the fall when considering these, and they did know of his work.) However, since these offer the option of streaming audio – maybe useful when waiting for an appointment – I thought I’d stream some music fom my iPhone and see how that sounds. Not good!
I believe that for normal listening, ie when hearing through the mics, there is a very steep filter that only passes the frequency bands of interest – for most of us, probably above about 1.5KHz – with everything below that being cut off. When streaming, however, everything has to be reproduced by the devices (plus the desired enhancement); in effect the hearing aids become headphones with some corrective EQ. With mine, it seems the audio stream is also being filtered, with the result that there is almost nothing below about 800Hz, which is unlistenable. Surely only the acoustic imput from the mics should be filtered, and any streaming audio left untouched.
As I recall, I had the same problem with the older Sivantos HAs – and the audiologist had no idea how to fix it – but as I wasn’t concerned with streaming, I let it go as they were more or less OK otherwise, but in this case I want to get it corrected. My audiologist doesn’t seem too familiar with the more “arcane” areas of programming, so I’d like to once again be pre-armed when I go for the second fitting and not have to contact ResSound myself.
Streaming music to your hearing aids will always be problematic and has nothing to do with the settings or programming of your hearing aids- whenever your earmold or eartip has a hole or vent in it, sounds below 1000 Hz will “rather” leak out of the vent and will be lost to you. The larger the venting hole, the less low frequency sound you will receive.
Some people use two sets of eartips- one with a completely occluding (unvented) eartip being used for streaming- this will improve the quality and bandwidth of streamed music.
Many thanks for your quick reply. My aids have closed domes, so I would have thought I might have half a chance of some reasonable lower-freq. response. The other options on these is “tulip” domes and custom moulds, but I don’t want to go the custom mould route as I dont want to have to change for the odd time I might want to stream. I used Etymotics ER4S in-ear phones in full custom moulds for many years for monitoring of location classical recording. I also have Grado GT200 wireless in-ear headphones with closed domes (larger than on the Jabras) which provide a very good seal. But there may be LF EQ “built in” to those to compensate (?), and more amplfier power available as well. But I was surprised by the lack of response below lower-midrange on the HAs, and the rather primitive EQ available on the app can’t provide the necessary correction.
I don’t stream from TV, but from what I have heard from the little music listening I’ve done, listening to TV would be completely futile, which is what made me wonder of the LF cutoff filter was processing the streaming feed as well, although I can’t imagine ReSound/GN missing that rather important detail.
Correction to my post above: The domes I have are in facr semi-closed, with a couple of very tiny holes (vents?). So I will ask my audiologist about closed options.
Best of luck to you, Stuart!
Domes, with holes or not, brings us to an imponderable problem: what do the hearing aids contribute and what from ordinary air sources?
With the aids working as ear buds (for cell phones, listening to recorded music directly, music fold-back for musicians, etc) they MUST be 100% of the source. Otherwise we have to figure out the “division of labour” with air sound. And hope the setting made with new domes in the techie’s office matches your use after.
For routine presbycusis – treble weakness – the bass should be proportioned to the air. Hence, domes with holes seem wise in order to enable direct air conduction of bass.
There is no general solution to this balancing act.
When I listen to my very fancy loudspeakers playing Mahler, I use a setting that further enhances the bass (and nullifies as much of the hearing aid trickery as I can). That’s because hearing aids are targeted for the speech band. And anyway, I sure don’t want to let those little devices try to substitute for any more than I must.
Thanks, Nancy. Actually, I’m not going to worry about streaming at all as it was only something I might occasionally want to do. When I really want to listen closely and in greater detail, I use my Grado GW100 open-ear headphones, or the GT200 in-ear ones if I’m away from home. For whatever reason, I barely notice my HF loss on headphones.
When I have my next appointment on Feb.1, I’m going to ask about open domes if there a no other downsides since I want to hear as much of my environment as possible. esp. when listening to music at home, and I am rarely in an environment where I need a lot of isolation.
The Jabras seem to be very good for at home listening. Phonak or Oticon might be slightly better but for my purposes, not worth the extra cost as I’m not doing live sound mixing or other very critical professional work.
Stuart, looks like you’ve worked out the best plan for your needs!
Hi Ben,
Your reasoning is basically what I was going on, but, alas, The Laws of Physics (darn ’em!) will always take precedence, as Dr. Chasin’s reply indicated above. I had open domes in my previous HAs and, poorer quality aside, they wotked fine overall. I had gone inititally to the audiologist pre-armed with Dr. Chasin’s checklist but as far as I can hear, the factory setting for Music seems to be just fine aside from a tiny bit of extra brightness I’ll probably get her to temper. I wish the phone app had some “proper” EQ like a basic parametric, so music nuts could make tiny adjustments at home, where we can listen “in situ” but all they have is a rather cheesy Bass / Middle / High. But they’re still pretty close.
WQXR New York is currently playing Der Rosenkavalier Suite over my B&W 605s and I absolutely want the very least interference with that!
I am a piano instructor with a severe hearing loss. Your article will help might pursuit of the correct hearing aids and settings to achieve true piano sound.
Thanks so much!
Hi Russell, thanks so much for taking the time to write. That means a lot to me that you found the article helpful. I wanted to share with you that earlier this year I switched to 3DME in-ear monitors for playing the piano and listening to music. The sound is incomparable! Here’s my independent review. If you end up checking these out, please let me know what you think.
https://grandpianopassion.com/alternative-hearing-aids-music-3dme-in-ear-monitors/
I so appreciate all the good information on this forum.. Thank you! I have regular, run-of-the-mill age-related hearing loss. As a reed player (clarinet and saxophone), from reading Dr. Chasin’s articles; I understand that we reed players are special because the mouthpiece is connected to our bone structure (the mouthpiece is gripped by our upper teeth). What guidance could you provide for selecting the best OTC hearing aid for reed players?
Hi Jennifer, thanks for writing, and I’m so glad to know you find Grand Piano Passion useful! You now have choices as a musician with hearing loss. As an expert user, I rank them in the following order:
1) In-ear monitors that you can program to your unique hearing profile, specifically designed for musicians
2) Prescription hearing aids, with a music setting programmable by your audiologist
3) OTC hearing aids, which lack a music setting, the implication being sound is being processed to maximize speech, not music.
I’m going to ask other experts to weigh in here. I’d suggest that before you purchase OTC hearing aids to wear when you are playing the clarinet and sax, check out my independent review of the 3DME in-ear monitors, which cost about the same as a good pair of OTC hearing aids, at https://grandpianopassion.com/alternative-hearing-aids-music-3dme-in-ear-monitors/.
Hi Jennifer, more in response to your question. Dr. Marshall Chasin, an audiologist who specializes in music and a Special Contributing Writer for Grand Piano Passion™, had this to say:
“For reeded woodwinds (and brass), there can be a lot of ‘bone conducted’ sound that gets to your inner ear. It is therefore important to have hearing protection that has a 1.5 mm air ‘vent’ to prevent an occluded sound in your head. The same for hearing aids… a relatively non-occluded eartip or vent.
However, you also bring up the issue of OTC hearing aids. This is more of a ‘hardware’ issue and nothing to do with the programming or eartip. I don’t know if any OTC hearing aids that can handle the higher sound levels (and peaks) of music without appreciable distortion. For music, I would suggest avoiding OTC hearing aids and see your audiologist instead.”
Hi, I’m a new user of an Oticon Intent 1 miniRITE although not a new user of HAs.
For the last five years or so I’ve been learning the cello and it’s become an important part of my life both for the music itself but also the sociability of meeting other amateur players.
The music setting on my old HAs (Widex in ear) was effective in suppressing feedback squeals on the two upper strings (D and A). There were no other discernible problems.
The MyMusic setting on the Opticon is taking some getting used to when listening to music but most acutely playing the cello. The C and G strings are fine with an acceptable resonant sound. The upper string sound needs getting used to admittedly (harsh, metallic) but the main issue is a persistent warbling (like being trapped in s cage of angry birds) that is especially obvious when playing legato but not pizzicato. Others have commented on a similar phenomenon earlier in this thread.
At my first review with the audiologist today (with the cello), she made some adjustments including reducing the left ear dBs and swopping my closed for open domes.
It’s probably too early to be pessimistic but there has been some slight improvement on the D but not the A string frustratingly.
Any advice please? My next review is in two weeks and fortunately my audiologist seems to be committed to getting this right.
Hello, and wonderful that you are enjoying not only the music but the company of other musicians! The best. I’m not clear from your comment whether you’ve shown your audiologist the checklist in this article and confirmed that she has implemented all of the recommendations? Could you let me know?
You may have already seen my insight on other comments that you now have choices as a musician with hearing loss. As an expert user, I rank them in the following order:
1) In-ear monitors that you can program to your unique hearing profile, specifically designed for musicians
2) Prescription hearing aids, with a music setting programmable by your audiologist
3) OTC hearing aids, which lack a music setting, the implication being sound is being processed to maximize speech, not music.
You may want to check out my independent review of the 3DME in-ear monitors, which have transformed my playing, at https://grandpianopassion.com/alternative-hearing-aids-music-3dme-in-ear-monitors/.
Thanks for the response: all helpful.
No I didn’t show her the checklist, perhaps naively, hoping that she could resolve the issue. I will email her before the next review in two weeks.
I hope all goes well with your appointment. If there’s any questions, please feel free to check back with us.